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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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yes it's the skeptic Zone episode number

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184 the 31st of March 2012 Richard

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Saunders here with you from beautiful

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southern New South Wales along the

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Murray River not so far out of Aubrey

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I'm here with my good friend and

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voiceover man for the skeptic zone Jim

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Wilshire hi Jim Richard how he who I'm

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well because we just had a fabulous

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chicken dinner with chips and broccoli

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and I was just gorgeous but pretty good

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Rosen is dangling now we're standing in

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your front yard listening to the

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cockatoo screeching in the background

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because we're waiting for the imminent

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arrival and passing overhead of the

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International Space Station the ISS is

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on its way it is and where Stan if the

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sun's just set Jupiter and Venus are

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bright bright over there towards the

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horizon the moon sort of not going to

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cause too much problem just see the last

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glow of the Sun this the sets I'm now

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and any minute as we gaze up towards the

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heavens which are looking more heavenly

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as we gaze more stars pop out I must say

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this part of the world where you live

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somewhat out of all bree is there's no

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light pollution absolutely it's

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absolutely superb for night viewing

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starveling stargazing you get the full

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experience of the Milky Way and all the

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stars brightly lit it's just makes you

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realize when you live in the city what

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you miss when you come here and of

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course the thing that still boggles my

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mind is that when you look up and look

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at all the stars you're seeing a pattern

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which has never existed doesn't exist

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now I never will that's right so so

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they're astrologers

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and the reason is of course because

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they're moving basically randomly in

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different directions yeah this is a

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foreign distances what we see is a

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snapshot from our point of view at this

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particular moment really well it's a

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construction I've not even a snapshot

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it's a construction but where is he is

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we're still at any minute now we're

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within a minute or two of actually you

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keep gazing towards the heavens and how

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that our listeners know that coming up

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on the skeptic zone today Maynard good

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old Maynard interviews a professor of

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journalism from bond university mark

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Pearson who's written a book called

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blogging and tweeting without being sued

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yes so I mean we're all blogging we're

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all twittering well some of us are you

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want to keep twittering away without

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being sued better listen to this

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interview coming up at the top of the

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show then after the break we have a

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report from our friends our very good

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friends at choice magazine the consumers

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advocate the watchdog here in Australia

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they've recently awarded a good man dr.

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ken harvey with their achievement award

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from choice magazine which is the

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opposite to their show keys which they

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dish out every year and a couple of

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years ago they gave one to the power

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balance people that's coming up and also

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on today's show we have a report from

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the launch of soap in albury with our

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good friend dr. chrissy wilson that'll

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be coming up well Jim a congratulations

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on that Ridge by the way is everything

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terrific thank you very much good to see

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you using soap occasionally thank you

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Jim yes yes I was speaking there just

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last night thank you Jim now let's gaze

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towards the heavens I am I have you are

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I'm looking at my watch now and it's it

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should be in viewed well now where are

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you international space station then

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decimated ah ah what wait a minute now

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if we look over towards their gym what's

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that above the tree line they're coming

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now there it is that is it appearing

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from the south direction some of the

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south east and we can see this moving

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light it's moving much faster than a

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plane gee that's doing about twenty

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seven thousand kilometers an hour reckon

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it's slightly larger than a football

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field yes ways the equivalent about 450

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cars quite extraordinary piece of

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contraption that mankind has built weary

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hundred and seventy kilometers out into

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space we were just briefly looking at

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the newspaper because the newspaper

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alerted us to the fact that if we came

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out at this time we should be able to

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see it well it's about a quarter of the

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way across the sky now and when we first

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glimpsed it it's to be honest not quite

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as bright as I did yeah it's about as

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blade is very impressive it is it's

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about as bright it's a little bit

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brighter than a star but not not very

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much bigger is it it's supposed to have

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six people in it at the moment yeah but

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I think I can see two entire football

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teams that is a football pitch it's not

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the ISS look they're waving to us from

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the process the bright light it's the

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bright lights no no it's the iris it it

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is yes I'm sure if we had a decent pair

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of binoculars or telescope right now we

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probably make out it some details but it

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looks like a bright star just shooting

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across the sky do you think they're

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making n signal service they are I sure

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I'm sure they look they listen to the

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skeptic zone every week up there they

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must hi guys we're looking at you yes

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sir when you download this episode or

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maybe you upload it when you're in space

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after you have to or they'd have to be

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on the other side of the planet you know

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it's it's roughly now halfway it's

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ranked slightly it's perfect it's just

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it's doing a u-turn and it

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just about to pass in front of Alpha

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Centauri well we heard the Southern

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Cross it might go behind might go behind

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a visionary and for those of you in the

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southern hemisphere the two pointers to

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the Southern Cross the space station is

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just about the past right between them

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look at that here it comes G the entire

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Traverse of an arc which is probably at

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what 20 degrees or so maybe our net ya

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from the horizon is expected to take

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about five minutes and that'd be about

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right should that be right about right

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so it's just gone through the Southern

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Cross well that the pointers of the

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Southern Cross now how am I going to be

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losing sight soon I think we're going to

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lose so it's about to go behind the

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power pole oh no what could we do oh

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it's step this way a little bit oh it

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blinked it blinked there it is take but

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there it is it's back again yes that's

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company what what did they actually

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spend putting it together Richard oh I

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wouldn't have a lot of money a lot had

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not a lot of dog biscuits let's more

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than a smidgen it had more than a

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smidgen I'm sure it's maybe two tags we

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are now it's sort of going to go behind

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the bull yeah we gonna lose your behind

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some stew the trees in the hill in about

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a minute or less even less yeah very

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impressive though and very exciting that

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it's happening live hmm on this replay

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of the zone is at whatever particular

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point in time people are repaying even

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in 20 years time that's that's right

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alive rolling out right now 20 years ago

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well there it there is a way they ain't

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goodbye we can still see it but it's

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just going behind this tree now yes and

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I'll go into the Pacific Ocean headings

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are then crashed or it's gone behind the

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truth there goes lovely all right quite

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Linda that was great well Jim why don't

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we run inside have a nice cold bottle of

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ginger beer and we'll let our listeners

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here's my not spooky action at a

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hey I just like getting out there and

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saying whatever I like about whoever I

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like whenever I like on Twitter online

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and Twitter is this amazing thing you

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know people it's a form of media where

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you can say whatever you like about

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anyone you like at any time without any

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legal recourse well apparently there's

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someone who thinks is not the case that

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person's mark Pearson journalist and

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professor of journalism at bond

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university so he knows was talking about

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and co-author of the quite well regarded

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the journalists guide to media law which

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I read briefly in the bathroom before I

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came here and it was because

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correspondent for reporters without

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borders and has been published in The

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Wall Street Journal so you've been sued

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many times mark have you well what quite

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I had a lawsuit very early in my career

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and that taught me a lesson that meant

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that I had to go across and research is

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this material and basically spent the

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last 30 years or so doing that well the

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book you've got is called blogging and

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tweeting without getting sued and what

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you've done well as you've done so good

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font work here because as the title gets

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larger towards the word sued that is the

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biggest word on the cover and that gets

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your attention if you're journalist yes

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well publisher has to take credit for

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that typography but it certainly does

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get the message home but not just a

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journalist's to the ordinary blogger and

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it's really aimed more at the lay

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bloggers and twitter who often goes into

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this business of publishing and they

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don't realize that it's online

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publishing that they're doing without

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understanding the centuries of laws and

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the hundreds of wars across different

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jurisdictions that apply to them mamiya

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mark pearson as a mob I'm always telling

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the people around me don't mistake me

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for journalists because I don't wish to

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be taken seriously I'm not that kind of

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person but whether you're taking

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seriously or not is in the eye the

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beholder isn't it well it is and people

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need to realize that what they're

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tweeting or posting to their Facebook

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pages or writing in their blog can

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actually have consequences for those

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that they are writing about and

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particularly the area of deformation

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which is a law that's been around for

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centuries was really only of concern to

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media outlets until this social media

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rebel

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and now people are ordinary citizens are

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getting sued because other people don't

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like what they've been saying about them

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look and one of the things you've got to

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realize straight away is that you've got

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a worldwide jurisdiction to look after

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whenever you say something potentially

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about anyone so how can anyone cover

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that well well I found a lot of

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difficulty myself in fact it's it's

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impossible even in a small book like

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that to go into detail into the various

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laws that control publishing throughout

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the world so all I've been able to do is

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scratch the surface and give people an

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idea of some of the basic principles

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behind it I think the main thing with

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the ordinary bloggers or social media

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user is to know when the alarm bells are

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ringing so that they they can sort of

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hold back and not rush to to press that

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publish button and be to know when to

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seek legal advice though that's the most

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important thing and it's better to be

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getting such advice before the event

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rather than when you've received the the

272
00:12:08,590 --> 00:12:06,800
deformation route let's go through a

273
00:12:10,299 --> 00:12:08,600
couple of statements here that I might

274
00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:10,309
put on a tweet or you might read or

275
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:12,110
something like that if you Twitter or

276
00:12:17,290 --> 00:12:14,959
wrote it publicly my boss is an idiot

277
00:12:19,329 --> 00:12:17,300
now is that defamatory or because we

278
00:12:20,769 --> 00:12:19,339
don't know who my boss is or whether my

279
00:12:22,689 --> 00:12:20,779
boss is a particular person I could have

280
00:12:24,369 --> 00:12:22,699
a couple it could be you know my spouse

281
00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:24,379
is that something that would be

282
00:12:28,059 --> 00:12:26,540
defamatory well on the face of it it

283
00:12:30,939 --> 00:12:28,069
certainly is defamatory and not just

284
00:12:32,139 --> 00:12:30,949
your boss but someone else who can show

285
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:32,149
that people thought you were talking

286
00:12:37,749 --> 00:12:34,370
about them so maybe if you have two or

287
00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:37,759
three bosses then the other the others

288
00:12:43,809 --> 00:12:39,790
that you didn't even intend to defame

289
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:43,819
may may well take action against you so

290
00:12:49,239 --> 00:12:46,490
on the face of it without further

291
00:12:51,069 --> 00:12:49,249
explanation there could be a defense

292
00:12:52,689 --> 00:12:51,079
that's available to you but that's

293
00:12:55,179 --> 00:12:52,699
that's what you'd need to really

294
00:12:57,100 --> 00:12:55,189
research before pressing that button

295
00:12:58,569 --> 00:12:57,110
that'll be interesting in court then

296
00:13:01,059 --> 00:12:58,579
because you'd have to then prove that

297
00:13:03,369 --> 00:13:01,069
the saddles person was or wasn't it an

298
00:13:05,410 --> 00:13:03,379
idiot you then have to like that would

299
00:13:08,169 --> 00:13:05,420
be there any case it's come up that this

300
00:13:11,769 --> 00:13:08,179
is cuttin clear is that yes um in fact

301
00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:11,779
well the former RSL leader in Victoria

302
00:13:17,470 --> 00:13:15,049
Bruce Ruxton uh actually used that

303
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:17,480
expression about a former politician

304
00:13:21,759 --> 00:13:19,850
and that case went all the way to a high

305
00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:21,769
court where he had written that this

306
00:13:27,759 --> 00:13:25,190
politician was an idiot luckily in that

307
00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:27,769
case the High Court held that he was

308
00:13:32,050 --> 00:13:29,750
expressing a political opinion which

309
00:13:33,550 --> 00:13:32,060
which they felt was actually protected

310
00:13:36,220 --> 00:13:33,560
under a very special constitutional

311
00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:36,230
defense but all rights to technical I

312
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:38,500
certainly wouldn't be relying on that

313
00:13:44,379 --> 00:13:40,880
unless you had some very good legal

314
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:44,389
advice and and a real really good

315
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:47,810
bankroll of legal resources available to

316
00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:49,130
you all rights they probably couldn't

317
00:13:53,949 --> 00:13:52,310
save Maynard sucks well you know may

318
00:13:56,170 --> 00:13:53,959
know that may well be true that's true

319
00:13:58,810 --> 00:13:56,180
they say his work is shonky and below

320
00:14:00,879 --> 00:13:58,820
par frankly he sucks I go well fair cop

321
00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:00,889
really truth is a defense after all yeah

322
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:02,720
there is a defense called honest opinion

323
00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:04,850
or fair comment which allows you to come

324
00:14:11,379 --> 00:14:07,940
to a negative conclusion about somebody

325
00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:11,389
in your opinion based on provable facts

326
00:14:15,790 --> 00:14:12,860
along the way so in other words you've

327
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:15,800
got to build up an argument on provable

328
00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:18,350
facts to demonstrate that your opinion

329
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,089
might be an extreme opinion about

330
00:14:25,329 --> 00:14:23,120
someone is is justifiable I always think

331
00:14:28,059 --> 00:14:25,339
humor should be a defense like if I said

332
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:28,069
that Julia Gillard is really a man it's

333
00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:31,490
obviously a third statement and she's a

334
00:14:36,970 --> 00:14:33,800
public figure could I go to court for

335
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:36,980
that well indeed you could or you could

336
00:14:40,449 --> 00:14:38,410
be sued over such a statement

337
00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:40,459
unfortunately the courts don't always

338
00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:43,190
have as good a sense of humor as we

339
00:14:47,019 --> 00:14:45,529
might hope and I don't think they had

340
00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:47,029
any sense of humor I don't think I was

341
00:14:51,610 --> 00:14:48,860
in a judge I've never seen a judge at a

342
00:14:53,410 --> 00:14:51,620
stand-up comedy gig alright the law

343
00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:53,420
doesn't specifically in Australia at

344
00:14:58,660 --> 00:14:55,430
least it doesn't specifically protects a

345
00:15:02,379 --> 00:14:58,670
tire and so it's one thing to be you

346
00:15:04,689 --> 00:15:02,389
know in a community situation but it's

347
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:04,699
another to actually be being satirical

348
00:15:08,439 --> 00:15:06,560
about someone and saying things that

349
00:15:10,629 --> 00:15:08,449
appear truthful but they're really

350
00:15:12,129 --> 00:15:10,639
tongue-in-cheek judges have shown

351
00:15:14,350 --> 00:15:12,139
traditionally they don't have much of a

352
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:14,360
sense of humor there and they have to

353
00:15:18,819 --> 00:15:16,490
basically guess what the ordinary

354
00:15:21,579 --> 00:15:18,829
reasonable person would think about that

355
00:15:23,410 --> 00:15:21,589
was a classic case where some very

356
00:15:26,199 --> 00:15:23,420
satirical comments were made about the

357
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,209
former politician Pauline Hanson in

358
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:28,880
Queensland in the form of a recording

359
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:31,370
that was being played on the ABCs triple

360
00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:35,450
day by a satirist and Pauline Hanson

361
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:37,430
went to the Queensland up went to the

362
00:15:40,210 --> 00:15:39,050
court of appeal in Queensland and it

363
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:40,220
doesn't said that that was hilarious

364
00:15:45,610 --> 00:15:42,770
that track yes you remember if other

365
00:15:48,070 --> 00:15:45,620
porn to put the port the Pauline pants

366
00:15:49,780 --> 00:15:48,080
down track yes yeah that's still subject

367
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:49,790
as I understand it's still subject to an

368
00:15:54,460 --> 00:15:51,650
injunction which stops that being

369
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:54,470
broadcast because the court held that it

370
00:15:59,200 --> 00:15:57,170
was defamatory and didn't hold didn't

371
00:16:01,900 --> 00:15:59,210
share that satirist sense of humor and

372
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:01,910
what about retweeting is a good chap

373
00:16:05,890 --> 00:16:03,290
you've got in your book about hosting

374
00:16:08,380 --> 00:16:05,900
the words of others now if the if a

375
00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:08,390
newspaper quotes someone or reruns a

376
00:16:11,620 --> 00:16:09,830
story from another newspaper they're

377
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:11,630
equally liable as in this country is

378
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:14,510
that the case with a retweet well that's

379
00:16:19,810 --> 00:16:16,850
yet to be determined by the courts and

380
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,820
the thing is when you retweet something

381
00:16:23,890 --> 00:16:22,160
if it is defamatory if it's highly

382
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:23,900
defamatory of someone else you know and

383
00:16:28,269 --> 00:16:26,210
and you've got 140 characters in Twitter

384
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:28,279
to play with so you could say something

385
00:16:32,740 --> 00:16:31,130
very very nasty we know a few words in

386
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:32,750
the language that we might say about

387
00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:35,330
somebody that is particularly scathing

388
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:38,480
and highly defamatory or a retweet with

389
00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:41,120
those words would you would be

390
00:16:45,610 --> 00:16:43,940
republishing them so basically by

391
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:45,620
retweeting even though you might say you

392
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:47,690
don't endorse with retweets if those

393
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:50,959
bear words are so defamatory of somebody

394
00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:53,839
else then you have republish them and if

395
00:16:57,699 --> 00:16:55,940
you're an easier target to find for the

396
00:17:00,880 --> 00:16:57,709
person that has been defamed if you're a

397
00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:00,890
perhaps wolfy ER or you're easily more

398
00:17:05,410 --> 00:17:03,230
easily identified as the person that's

399
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:05,420
republished them then they might go for

400
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:09,199
you rather than the original tweeter who

401
00:17:12,819 --> 00:17:11,120
may have a bit a legal team may have a

402
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:12,829
better legal team or may not be as

403
00:17:19,650 --> 00:17:16,010
easily found because they may have used

404
00:17:22,179 --> 00:17:19,660
various devices anonymity or whatever to

405
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:22,189
escape identification now what

406
00:17:26,679 --> 00:17:24,890
high-profile test cases have we had for

407
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:26,689
blogging I imagine there's been a few

408
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:30,290
and Twitter in Australia we've had we've

409
00:17:34,750 --> 00:17:32,450
had a few most of them have a work their

410
00:17:36,750 --> 00:17:34,760
way all the way through the courts we

411
00:17:40,510 --> 00:17:36,760
had one where a West Australian

412
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:40,520
businessman was defamed fairly badly on

413
00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:43,760
on basically an online bulletin board

414
00:17:47,170 --> 00:17:45,260
about the company

415
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:47,180
in the operations and his own

416
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:49,730
performance and that was done by an

417
00:17:56,350 --> 00:17:53,570
anonymous commentator but his lawyers

418
00:17:59,920 --> 00:17:56,360
got on the job and managed to do various

419
00:18:01,810 --> 00:17:59,930
searches and through IP Internet

420
00:18:05,020 --> 00:18:01,820
Protocol numbers and so on they managed

421
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:05,030
to identify who this person was and he

422
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:06,890
finished up having to pay about forty

423
00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:09,200
thousand dollars in defamation payments

424
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:11,990
okay that's a pretty penny yes we also

425
00:18:18,370 --> 00:18:15,170
recently had that like a hardy case

426
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:18,380
where where apparently she's had to

427
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:20,930
settle out of court over wrongly

428
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:24,970
accusing someone of being online stalker

429
00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:27,890
we've had various ones where they've

430
00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:29,660
been very serious threats of defamation

431
00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:31,820
action the editor-in-chief of the

432
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:34,550
Australian newspaper threatened a

433
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:37,130
journalism academic who had been

434
00:18:44,110 --> 00:18:40,400
tweeting a conference almost 18 months

435
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:44,120
ago now and she had quoted a former

436
00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:46,880
reporter saying certain things and the

437
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:48,740
editor-in-chief of the Australian wrote

438
00:18:54,490 --> 00:18:51,890
a very serious legal letter threatening

439
00:18:56,980 --> 00:18:54,500
defamation action movie ended that

440
00:19:00,490 --> 00:18:56,990
didn't unfold the action wasn't pursued

441
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:00,500
but nevertheless it sent a very scary

442
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:02,210
message to that particular academic

443
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:03,770
because that's where it can get really

444
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:05,690
up that's rub seen some of the nastiest

445
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:07,610
stuff is when people are blogging a live

446
00:19:11,890 --> 00:19:10,250
event it's almost like they just want to

447
00:19:13,150 --> 00:19:11,900
heckle you it's like that they want to

448
00:19:14,410 --> 00:19:13,160
score points on you for the sake of

449
00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:14,420
scoring points because they're in the

450
00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:16,190
room and they can say stuff you can't

451
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:18,020
see yeah I think it's a very dangerous

452
00:19:23,710 --> 00:19:20,690
practice having what's called a live

453
00:19:25,930 --> 00:19:23,720
Twitter feed why would you do that you

454
00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:25,940
just asking for trouble in the very

455
00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:28,940
conference whip where the audience can

456
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:30,680
see the twitter feed there are so many

457
00:19:35,530 --> 00:19:32,720
dynamics that come into play I've been

458
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:35,540
in conferences where this happens and it

459
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:37,850
really is a distraction in some ways and

460
00:19:41,770 --> 00:19:38,750
the people who are in the audience

461
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,780
tweeting start to take on you know the

462
00:19:45,550 --> 00:19:43,280
role of the people that are meant to be

463
00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:45,560
running the show of the panelists or the

464
00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:48,260
author speaker and quite often it's a

465
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:50,150
distraction and quite often it's a very

466
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:52,310
negative force in the room I do just

467
00:19:55,690 --> 00:19:54,290
like the tweets on Q&A one of the

468
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:55,700
reasons I don't watch the show is

469
00:19:59,139 --> 00:19:57,650
because that it there's people just

470
00:20:02,259 --> 00:19:59,149
saying stuff and they're just saying

471
00:20:03,369 --> 00:20:02,269
to be funny which is okay but it comes

472
00:20:05,289 --> 00:20:03,379
up the bottom there and it can often

473
00:20:06,999 --> 00:20:05,299
distract from what's the argument that's

474
00:20:08,769 --> 00:20:07,009
going to the rather you know arrow died

475
00:20:10,329 --> 00:20:08,779
argument that's going on on the screen

476
00:20:12,099 --> 00:20:10,339
gets distracted by something completely

477
00:20:14,469 --> 00:20:12,109
frivolous but then again maybe that's

478
00:20:17,169 --> 00:20:14,479
why people like it yeah might I disagree

479
00:20:18,639 --> 00:20:17,179
with you there oh I think they ring the

480
00:20:20,289 --> 00:20:18,649
bell ring the bell without a fight you

481
00:20:22,479 --> 00:20:20,299
disagree you think that make that makes

482
00:20:24,879 --> 00:20:22,489
the show you reckon I enjoy the QA

483
00:20:26,859 --> 00:20:24,889
twitter feed and there is so important

484
00:20:28,930 --> 00:20:26,869
differences there what I was talking

485
00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:28,940
about was basically a twitter feed going

486
00:20:34,089 --> 00:20:31,700
on during a conference which is

487
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,099
basically are moderated whereas at least

488
00:20:39,009 --> 00:20:36,320
the QA one is moderated there's someone

489
00:20:41,529 --> 00:20:39,019
at the ABC sifting through hundreds

490
00:20:43,419 --> 00:20:41,539
perhaps thousands of tweets going on as

491
00:20:45,369 --> 00:20:43,429
that program is being broadcast

492
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:45,379
selecting the ones they see as most

493
00:20:49,719 --> 00:20:47,330
pertinent so you have basically a

494
00:20:51,729 --> 00:20:49,729
separate and entertainment channel going

495
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:51,739
on in the bottom half of the screen see

496
00:20:57,759 --> 00:20:54,169
III would debate your use of the word

497
00:20:59,529 --> 00:20:57,769
pertinent well we're talking about

498
00:21:01,359 --> 00:20:59,539
settle our earlier and some of them

499
00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:01,369
clearly fall into that category Matt

500
00:21:05,289 --> 00:21:03,289
that's true and also it is Mark Scott's

501
00:21:06,579 --> 00:21:05,299
one of his favorite shows so I I don't

502
00:21:08,409 --> 00:21:06,589
think you'll ever see a problem with it

503
00:21:12,249 --> 00:21:08,419
and to his credit is one of these are

504
00:21:14,979 --> 00:21:12,259
very active Twitter user and not just in

505
00:21:16,930 --> 00:21:14,989
promoting the abcs programming but he

506
00:21:18,849 --> 00:21:16,940
often has some very insightful comments

507
00:21:20,379 --> 00:21:18,859
see yeah I've got to say who is your

508
00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:20,389
most favorite you said you like Mark

509
00:21:22,899 --> 00:21:21,679
Scott there and he's probably one of the

510
00:21:24,849 --> 00:21:22,909
guys it's in the middle of what's going

511
00:21:27,489 --> 00:21:24,859
on is that who's your favorite Twitter

512
00:21:30,609 --> 00:21:27,499
person Australia more well in Australia

513
00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:30,619
yep the the thing is I don't use Twitter

514
00:21:35,589 --> 00:21:32,809
much in that way main I use it as a

515
00:21:37,869 --> 00:21:35,599
professional research tool so my

516
00:21:39,940 --> 00:21:37,879
favorite tweets we call them twitter

517
00:21:41,619 --> 00:21:39,950
friends are actually people that would

518
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:41,629
be quite boring probably to your

519
00:21:45,609 --> 00:21:43,369
audience because they are tweeting on

520
00:21:47,829 --> 00:21:45,619
media law issues which are in social

521
00:21:52,289 --> 00:21:47,839
media law which is my area of expertise

522
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:52,299
I don't use Twitter as a as a social

523
00:21:58,419 --> 00:21:56,210
private vehicle i use my facebook page

524
00:22:01,269 --> 00:21:58,429
for that so i've got a very clear

525
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,279
division between the two and so i

526
00:22:05,409 --> 00:22:03,200
wouldn't dare to mention a favourite

527
00:22:07,209 --> 00:22:05,419
Tweep in my area of media law because

528
00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:07,219
i'd be upsetting to many of the others

529
00:22:11,620 --> 00:22:09,620
who i follow

530
00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:11,630
I think that's that's very telling mark

531
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:14,030
Pearson like here are the journalists

532
00:22:18,910 --> 00:22:15,170
professor of journals with bond

533
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:18,920
university and you don't use twitter in

534
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:21,440
a way like it yet you're very very

535
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:23,570
careful with it and I think that is a

536
00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:26,720
warning to the rest of us well it may

537
00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:29,270
well be it's a people do these things in

538
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:30,350
their own way and make their own

539
00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:33,710
decisions I've actually found it all a

540
00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:36,080
little confusing early on in me in

541
00:22:39,790 --> 00:22:38,390
Twitter with people sort of on the one

542
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:39,800
hand sometimes saying their coffee

543
00:22:43,030 --> 00:22:41,570
heading coffee or a nice meal or

544
00:22:44,980 --> 00:22:43,040
chatting with friends and on the other

545
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:44,990
hand saying something quite significant

546
00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:47,330
that I find useful for my work so I

547
00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:49,460
decided very early on to maintain

548
00:22:56,620 --> 00:22:53,420
separate guys it's journal or guys as my

549
00:22:59,260 --> 00:22:56,630
Twitter account and or hand or as it's

550
00:23:02,740 --> 00:22:59,270
called in Twitter and only tweet on

551
00:23:05,169 --> 00:23:02,750
media law press freedom social media law

552
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:05,179
those sorts of topics and one of the

553
00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:07,610
questions I want to ask you in regard to

554
00:23:10,330 --> 00:23:09,110
the Australian skeptics is one of the

555
00:23:12,430 --> 00:23:10,340
ongoing there's a lot of on-going

556
00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:12,440
debates between the Australian

557
00:23:15,669 --> 00:23:14,150
vaccination network and this try and

558
00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:15,679
skeptics or the strand skeptics all

559
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:17,150
these people and I've seen a lot of very

560
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:19,370
heated debate going back and forth and

561
00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:21,710
at times I've thought oh that's a bit

562
00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:24,500
much from from both sides it is there an

563
00:23:28,810 --> 00:23:27,590
easy is there a quick way to to avoid

564
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:28,820
getting yourself in trouble and you're

565
00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:30,110
getting this back and forth kind of

566
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:31,700
debate well I've got to make it clear

567
00:23:35,830 --> 00:23:33,410
that I'm not a lawyer so I can't give

568
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:35,840
legal advice yeah that's right here he

569
00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:37,970
only plays one on TV occasionally people

570
00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:41,390
is not a real lawyer but as a journalist

571
00:23:46,090 --> 00:23:43,820
I would suggest p if people stick to the

572
00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:46,100
topic often in sport we have the

573
00:23:50,830 --> 00:23:47,870
expression about playing the ball

574
00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:50,840
rolling the man and if people stick to

575
00:23:54,940 --> 00:23:53,270
the ball basically the topic that is

576
00:23:57,549 --> 00:23:54,950
being debated in the public arena

577
00:24:00,400 --> 00:23:57,559
they're going to be pretty safe it's

578
00:24:02,830 --> 00:24:00,410
when they venture into personal

579
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:02,840
characteristics they personalize their

580
00:24:08,530 --> 00:24:05,840
attack they bring in material from left

581
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:08,540
field that they can't prove so if

582
00:24:14,049 --> 00:24:10,690
skeptics are talking about an issue like

583
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:14,059
vaccinations and they are talking about

584
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:16,130
the data that's involved and and they're

585
00:24:20,169 --> 00:24:18,290
engaging in debate and perhaps very

586
00:24:22,409 --> 00:24:20,179
heated debate with the individuals from

587
00:24:23,759 --> 00:24:22,419
from a different viewpoint there

588
00:24:25,289 --> 00:24:23,769
they're going to be pretty safe but as

589
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:25,299
soon as they start talking about that

590
00:24:31,259 --> 00:24:27,730
individual and their private life for

591
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:31,269
that's alleging that they've you know

592
00:24:36,330 --> 00:24:33,850
misused finances or they're negligent in

593
00:24:37,859 --> 00:24:36,340
their work these sorts of things then

594
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:37,869
that's when they're going to be on shaky

595
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:40,210
ground now shaky ground you can find

596
00:24:44,399 --> 00:24:42,460
yourself on pretty easily is the case in

597
00:24:46,529 --> 00:24:44,409
your book of paul chambers in the UK

598
00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:46,539
where he ran foul of the terror laws

599
00:24:50,009 --> 00:24:48,190
there i imagine we have similar ones

600
00:24:51,570 --> 00:24:50,019
here in australia but basically he was

601
00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:51,580
just making a joke because it was late

602
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:53,590
for a flight or the airport was snowed

603
00:24:56,879 --> 00:24:55,690
in and he said arm get that isn't fixed

604
00:24:59,820 --> 00:24:56,889
within a week I'm going to blow up the

605
00:25:01,799 --> 00:24:59,830
airport and I most people would take

606
00:25:03,029 --> 00:25:01,809
that at face value and not think that he

607
00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:03,039
was going to blow up the airport there's

608
00:25:06,869 --> 00:25:05,289
a joke yes well like I said earlier the

609
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:06,879
authorities don't always have the same

610
00:25:12,899 --> 00:25:09,039
sense of humor and we we live in an

611
00:25:15,739 --> 00:25:12,909
international era of of high national

612
00:25:18,299 --> 00:25:15,749
security counterterrorism operations and

613
00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:18,309
if there's one thing I'd suggest to all

614
00:25:23,399 --> 00:25:20,470
of your listeners is don't never joke

615
00:25:25,289 --> 00:25:23,409
about those sorts of things and and what

616
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:25,299
he did he made that mistake the

617
00:25:31,289 --> 00:25:27,600
authorities took it seriously because

618
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,299
when someone says is threatening to blow

619
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:33,279
up an airport that there's not

620
00:25:39,619 --> 00:25:35,049
necessarily a hundred percent chance

621
00:25:43,259 --> 00:25:39,629
it's a joke so he was suddenly arrested

622
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:43,269
charged he was in awful legal trouble I

623
00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:44,559
understand he's gone through an appeal

624
00:25:50,580 --> 00:25:47,289
process since then and but nevertheless

625
00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:50,590
he faced all sorts of legal costs and

626
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:53,289
consequences that was just for the

627
00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:55,450
moment and you know at the time just

628
00:25:59,220 --> 00:25:56,950
seemed to be a funny little joke he was

629
00:26:01,470 --> 00:25:59,230
sharing with his Twitter followers but

630
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:01,480
to a judge wouldn't it seem that if you

631
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:03,340
were actually going to blow up an

632
00:26:07,169 --> 00:26:05,470
airport you would not tweet to people

633
00:26:09,330 --> 00:26:07,179
that you're going to blow up an airport

634
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:09,340
yes I think the courts and the

635
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:11,350
authorities would have sent a very clear

636
00:26:15,629 --> 00:26:13,600
message to the community that this isn't

637
00:26:20,009 --> 00:26:15,639
something that is meant to be joked

638
00:26:22,379 --> 00:26:20,019
about and also how I mean from it from

639
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:22,389
their point of view I suppose they don't

640
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:24,730
want their time taken up with people

641
00:26:28,409 --> 00:26:26,470
joking about these things when there's

642
00:26:31,589 --> 00:26:28,419
the real battle to be fought there

643
00:26:33,419 --> 00:26:31,599
against uh actual terrorists who have

644
00:26:35,470 --> 00:26:33,429
such plans and one of the real

645
00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:35,480
situations we find on

646
00:26:39,250 --> 00:26:37,550
Twitter and with blogs as well is people

647
00:26:41,770 --> 00:26:39,260
impersonating other people one of my

648
00:26:42,850 --> 00:26:41,780
favorite tweets that one of my favorite

649
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:42,860
Twitter accounts in Australia is the

650
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:45,410
fake Paul Keating it can be pretty ribe

651
00:26:49,210 --> 00:26:47,570
all the time much as Paul himself could

652
00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:49,220
be and it does make some interesting

653
00:26:53,650 --> 00:26:51,920
political points but when you give your

654
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:53,660
fake Julia Gillard there you got fake

655
00:26:58,810 --> 00:26:55,730
everybody now I know there's a law in

656
00:27:01,030 --> 00:26:58,820
Arkansas's that was passed in 2009

657
00:27:03,250 --> 00:27:01,040
against a specific thing but is there a

658
00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:03,260
problem with impersonating other people

659
00:27:06,790 --> 00:27:05,150
as there is in real life well it

660
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:06,800
certainly can be a lot of these things

661
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:09,520
are taken as purely satirical and and

662
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:12,890
the even the real people for whom the

663
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:16,490
fake account has been set up take it as

664
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:18,710
a joke and understand that most of the

665
00:27:23,710 --> 00:27:20,510
people reading it would never even think

666
00:27:26,740 --> 00:27:23,720
it was really them writing it so the

667
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:26,750
thing with these fake identities is that

668
00:27:31,870 --> 00:27:29,510
normally in the descriptor on the the

669
00:27:33,790 --> 00:27:31,880
person's gravatar they are their hand or

670
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:33,800
for the account it does say that they

671
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:37,370
are not the real person who you get into

672
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:39,050
trouble if you are actually genuinely

673
00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:41,330
pretending to be that person basically

674
00:27:46,690 --> 00:27:43,460
impersonating someone else and that

675
00:27:49,390 --> 00:27:46,700
breaches both the rules of Facebook and

676
00:27:51,070 --> 00:27:49,400
Twitter and so they can actually suspend

677
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:51,080
your account if someone complains about

678
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:53,210
that but it also might break a whole

679
00:27:58,150 --> 00:27:56,090
range of rules in within the country

680
00:27:59,770 --> 00:27:58,160
that you're operating to do with

681
00:28:01,990 --> 00:27:59,780
people's will in the u.s. it's often

682
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:02,000
called personality rights and and

683
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:03,710
they're saying within Australian

684
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:05,570
copyright law there are moral rights

685
00:28:12,340 --> 00:28:08,510
where people have entitlement to

686
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:12,350
represent material works words under

687
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,370
their own guys because and even have

688
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:18,080
right to take action against those

689
00:28:22,930 --> 00:28:21,050
falsely using their identity and two

690
00:28:25,030 --> 00:28:22,940
last questions which get to the core of

691
00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:25,040
the matter what is the first step you

692
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:26,990
should take if you feel you've been

693
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:30,110
wronged well the first thing you would

694
00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:32,480
do would be to take legal advice to find

695
00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:34,220
out whether you actually have been

696
00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:36,830
wronged but as so you shouldn't go to

697
00:28:40,090 --> 00:28:38,270
the person themselves and say look I'd

698
00:28:41,770 --> 00:28:40,100
like an apology you shouldn't do what I

699
00:28:43,570 --> 00:28:41,780
was gonna say that as a free expression

700
00:28:46,030 --> 00:28:43,580
advocate I think these things can

701
00:28:47,470 --> 00:28:46,040
normally be resolved without lawyers

702
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:47,480
being involved so

703
00:28:52,390 --> 00:28:49,730
my first step would be to complain to

704
00:28:54,580 --> 00:28:52,400
whoever it is that said it ask them to

705
00:28:57,850 --> 00:28:54,590
apologize ask them to issue a correction

706
00:29:00,400 --> 00:28:57,860
and and if they're not willing to do

707
00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:00,410
that then perhaps to consider some legal

708
00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:02,900
advice to to pursue the matter further

709
00:29:08,260 --> 00:29:06,140
and what should you do when you're the

710
00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:08,270
one you think I've stuffed up or you've

711
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:10,190
received a complaint well if you've

712
00:29:14,530 --> 00:29:11,510
received a complaint and there's any

713
00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:14,540
threat of legal action whatsoever I'd be

714
00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:17,630
getting legal advice instantly if it's

715
00:29:22,210 --> 00:29:19,700
not a threat of legal advice then I

716
00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:22,220
would be also engaging in you know some

717
00:29:26,260 --> 00:29:23,840
sort of alternative dispute resolution

718
00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:26,270
with the person involved to try to us

719
00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:28,190
wage them so that they don't take that

720
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:29,990
step it's interesting you write in your

721
00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:31,730
book that the first thing you might want

722
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:34,190
to do is apologize but maybe not that's

723
00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:35,840
not what you should do first of all you

724
00:29:40,780 --> 00:29:37,820
write in your book yes well the trouble

725
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:40,790
with apologies and corrections Andrew no

726
00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:45,430
retractions is that and the legal advice

727
00:29:50,830 --> 00:29:48,590
is really necessary before you do these

728
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:50,840
sorts of things because sometimes it can

729
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,050
ruin a legal defense to have done so so

730
00:29:58,030 --> 00:29:56,240
for example a defense that it was your

731
00:30:00,190 --> 00:29:58,040
honest opinion or your fair comment

732
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:00,200
where you were criticizing someone if

733
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:01,730
you've retracted that and said you

734
00:30:05,890 --> 00:30:03,890
didn't really mean to say it in some

735
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:05,900
places you'd lose the defense because

736
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:08,810
how can you have an honest opinion if

737
00:30:12,370 --> 00:30:11,120
you didn't mean to say it so we're

738
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:12,380
starting to get a little bit technical

739
00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:16,010
legally here so all I'm saying is you

740
00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:18,560
know an apology like I'm sorry this made

741
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:21,140
you upset rather than I'm sorry I was

742
00:30:24,220 --> 00:30:22,490
wrong I didn't mean to say it

743
00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:24,230
particularly if you didn't if you

744
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:26,150
actually didn't mean to say it you might

745
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:28,730
be on better ground but in Australian

746
00:30:33,370 --> 00:30:30,530
under Australian law there's some very

747
00:30:36,310 --> 00:30:33,380
very technical and strict requirements

748
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:36,320
of offers of amends and apologies and so

749
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:38,090
they really need to be negotiated

750
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:40,760
through a lawyer look mark Pearson from

751
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:42,650
bond university professor of journalism

752
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:45,110
and what is the one thing your students

753
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,410
ask you the most often ask me whether

754
00:30:52,540 --> 00:30:50,720
they are really publishers when they're

755
00:30:54,580 --> 00:30:52,550
using social media they just can't

756
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:54,590
believe it and I can't believe that

757
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:56,240
their work is might be going to six

758
00:31:01,060 --> 00:30:58,370
hundred or more jurisdictions throughout

759
00:31:03,190 --> 00:31:01,070
the world so it takes a lot for them

760
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:03,200
understand that just the smallest tweet

761
00:31:09,129 --> 00:31:05,570
can actually be a publication with legal

762
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:09,139
consequences and the quick answer to is

763
00:31:13,629 --> 00:31:11,690
it am a bit worried about this is to

764
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:13,639
maybe take some time don't do it

765
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:14,960
instantly if you got if you're reacting

766
00:31:20,289 --> 00:31:16,970
to something take time before you tweet

767
00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:20,299
don't react sleep on it uh well Twitter

768
00:31:24,159 --> 00:31:22,100
is an instant medium and it's really

769
00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:24,169
cool to be seen to be right on top of it

770
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:27,470
topic getting it wrong or doing damage

771
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:29,210
to somebody else in a whole range of

772
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:31,970
ways is far too great a risk to take sit

773
00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:34,399
back take a deep breath don't have a cup

774
00:31:39,970 --> 00:31:35,870
of coffee think about what you really

775
00:31:41,889 --> 00:31:39,980
want to write and and only then after

776
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:41,899
calming down a little bite you write

777
00:31:45,820 --> 00:31:44,330
something a little more tempered Mike

778
00:31:48,009 --> 00:31:45,830
Pearson author of blogging and tweeting

779
00:31:49,539 --> 00:31:48,019
without getting sued I'm actually

780
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:49,549
reading the font because it gets bigger

781
00:31:53,169 --> 00:31:51,710
they're a very useful book and hopefully

782
00:31:54,970 --> 00:31:53,179
it'll avoid someone ending up in court

783
00:32:10,119 --> 00:31:54,980
in the near future thank you Mark Thank

784
00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:13,460
hi this is Carrie papi i am ross

785
00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:15,929
Fletcher okay Ross hey we're from a

786
00:32:21,259 --> 00:32:19,289
podcast called oh no roster kerry we

787
00:32:22,849 --> 00:32:21,269
find out what happens when you show up

788
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:22,859
and ask questions we've hung out with

789
00:32:27,769 --> 00:32:25,200
the caballes the Mormons we've gone and

790
00:32:30,169 --> 00:32:27,779
gotten ear candle gone to the Sikhs we

791
00:32:31,820 --> 00:32:30,179
show up so you don't have to so find out

792
00:32:33,919 --> 00:32:31,830
where we're going next we'll even have

793
00:32:36,349 --> 00:32:33,929
special episodes where we have famous

794
00:32:38,330 --> 00:32:36,359
guests like Brian Dalton from mr. deity

795
00:32:40,369 --> 00:32:38,340
you heard that awesome theme music he

796
00:32:44,539 --> 00:32:40,379
wrote that you should come visit us at

797
00:32:47,719 --> 00:32:44,549
Oh No podcast.com or facebook.com slash

798
00:32:51,589 --> 00:32:47,729
on rack what the hell's on a cross Oh in

799
00:32:59,539 --> 00:32:51,599
RAC Oh Oh No Ross and Carrie that's our

800
00:33:01,729 --> 00:32:59,549
show that's a smart come join us choice

801
00:33:04,129 --> 00:33:01,739
exists to unlock the power of consumers

802
00:33:06,229 --> 00:33:04,139
and we do that by providing expert

803
00:33:08,419 --> 00:33:06,239
information advice and support to our

804
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,429
members and where necessary we will

805
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:10,799
intervene in markets to campaign for the

806
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:12,450
consumer interest as well maybe one

807
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:14,159
hundred percent of our income is derived

808
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:16,710
from our members and that allows us to

809
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:18,330
be able to speak out without fear or

810
00:33:22,639 --> 00:33:20,330
favor we are one hundred percent

811
00:33:24,589 --> 00:33:22,649
independent in what we say and in what

812
00:33:26,509 --> 00:33:24,599
we do twice a year we hold awards

813
00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:26,519
firstly the sean keys which showcased

814
00:33:31,549 --> 00:33:28,349
the very worst products and services in

815
00:33:33,349 --> 00:33:31,559
australia but secondly and today you

816
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:33,359
will see the choice award some of the

817
00:33:36,859 --> 00:33:34,710
very best products and services

818
00:33:40,609 --> 00:33:36,869
available and they are truly exceptional

819
00:33:43,159 --> 00:33:40,619
to pass the choice test dr. ken harvey

820
00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:43,169
is one of australia's leading experts in

821
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:46,200
public health he's a fierce champion for

822
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:48,690
the rights of consumers in particular

823
00:33:53,659 --> 00:33:51,090
around dodgy health products that are

824
00:33:56,239 --> 00:33:53,669
more spin than cure so it will covers no

825
00:33:59,299 --> 00:33:56,249
surprise that ken is our consumer

826
00:34:01,219 --> 00:33:59,309
champion for 2012 let's hear from Ken in

827
00:34:03,529 --> 00:34:01,229
his own words that the work that was

828
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:03,539
done other work that he continues to do

829
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:04,000
on

830
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:09,310
was late seventies I was involved with a

831
00:34:13,169 --> 00:34:11,110
World Health Organization on ethical

832
00:34:15,090 --> 00:34:13,179
criteria of the medicinal drug promotion

833
00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:15,100
and ethical promotion is part of

834
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:17,020
national drug policies and World Health

835
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:19,210
Organization drug policies and so I've

836
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:23,200
always had an interest in bed and if IC

837
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:25,690
promotion that I think is not in accord

838
00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:28,210
with ethical criteria and there's a

839
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:30,540
variety of codes of conduct and

840
00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:33,280
therapeutic goods advertising codes then

841
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:35,080
I send in complaints are on the grounds

842
00:34:39,869 --> 00:34:37,510
that someone should do it and hence my

843
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:39,879
reputation as a serial complainant which

844
00:34:44,129 --> 00:34:42,310
I think I'm quite proud of actually just

845
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:44,139
early this year I succeeded in getting a

846
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:45,730
forty thousand dollar fine out of the

847
00:34:51,149 --> 00:34:49,210
company for inappropriately promoting a

848
00:34:52,950 --> 00:34:51,159
prescription drug to general public

849
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:52,960
unethical promotion no matter whether

850
00:34:59,220 --> 00:34:55,570
it's directed to doctors or consumers is

851
00:35:01,140 --> 00:34:59,230
basically trying to get irresponsible

852
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:01,150
prescribing or consumption habits of

853
00:35:06,060 --> 00:35:03,610
drugs it's trying to delude either the

854
00:35:10,930 --> 00:35:06,070
doctors or consumers that a product's

855
00:35:14,650 --> 00:35:13,059
the principles of a system and good I

856
00:35:16,540 --> 00:35:14,660
mean there is a good therapeutic with

857
00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:16,550
advertising code based on the World

858
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:19,670
Health ethical criteria there's a good

859
00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:21,770
independent complaint resolution panel

860
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:22,940
which I think produces good

861
00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:25,520
determinations albeit they're overloaded

862
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:27,140
the problem is complaint resolution

863
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:30,770
panels got no power if they can and they

864
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:34,310
do send non-compliance to the

865
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:35,990
Therapeutic Goods Administration which

866
00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:38,240
ultimately is the final regulator the

867
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:42,020
TGA then could Institute criminal

868
00:35:47,260 --> 00:35:45,050
proceedings in practice they have never

869
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:47,270
ever done so the teacher is a paper

870
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:51,050
tiger and that most people most sponsors

871
00:35:56,620 --> 00:35:54,530
can get away with unethical advertising

872
00:35:58,420 --> 00:35:56,630
so clearly if you have a system with no

873
00:35:59,920 --> 00:35:58,430
penalties the Cowboys are going to take

874
00:36:04,880 --> 00:35:59,930
advantage of it and that's what's

875
00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:08,150
there's been a succession of weight loss

876
00:36:14,090 --> 00:36:10,740
complementary medicines that have been

877
00:36:16,190 --> 00:36:14,100
scams basically advertised out of all

878
00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:16,200
proportion to their efficacy and the

879
00:36:19,940 --> 00:36:17,790
census things are classic I mean it was

880
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:19,950
said to be the largest world clinical

881
00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:23,610
trial wonderful claims you'd lose weight

882
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:27,000
while you sleep for example the trial

883
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:29,610
was fabricated and never existed and it

884
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:31,710
was just a reflection of really relax

885
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:34,050
Atia the Australian system again I don't

886
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:37,080
believe the TGA takes these these

887
00:36:40,610 --> 00:36:38,910
concerns seriously enough it's a scandal

888
00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:40,620
but the government doesn't seem to want

889
00:36:44,330 --> 00:36:42,270
to do much about it I say I used to

890
00:36:45,980 --> 00:36:44,340
treat patients now I treat governments

891
00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:45,990
they're not sicker and a lot harder to

892
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:47,940
treat but someone's got to do it p'tee

893
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:50,400
GA needs civil penalties rather than

894
00:36:54,190 --> 00:36:51,690
criminal penalties it can be easily

895
00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:54,200
applied and which will bite and hurt

896
00:36:58,010 --> 00:36:56,520
they haven't got those at the moment and

897
00:37:02,990 --> 00:36:58,020
again the complaint resolution panel

898
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:03,000
needs and also I had encourage people if

899
00:37:07,010 --> 00:37:04,650
they think that something on television

900
00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:07,020
doesn't look right for claims seem to be

901
00:37:12,620 --> 00:37:08,940
too good to be true they probably are

902
00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:12,630
too good to be true and the complaint

903
00:37:16,070 --> 00:37:13,980
resolution panel can be found on a

904
00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:16,080
website there's an online complaint form

905
00:37:20,330 --> 00:37:18,540
again if they felt that they wanted help

906
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:20,340
then there are people available and on

907
00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:22,050
one of them that will will help

908
00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:24,180
consumers to properly formulate a

909
00:37:33,609 --> 00:37:30,849
choice were a bit of encouragement from

910
00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:33,619
others has finally after five months got

911
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:35,780
out of the TGA a list of properly

912
00:37:40,359 --> 00:37:38,690
evaluated registered complementary

913
00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:40,369
medicines which went up on the TGA

914
00:37:45,819 --> 00:37:43,310
website just this week choice I think is

915
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:45,829
a crucial organization it's not the only

916
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:48,560
organization working in con consumer

917
00:37:53,740 --> 00:37:51,410
health issues but choice is totally

918
00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:53,750
independent and a net principle of

919
00:37:58,180 --> 00:37:56,660
independent assessment is crucial it's

920
00:38:00,970 --> 00:37:58,190
what I'm on about about pharmaceuticals

921
00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:00,980
the need equally well the fact that

922
00:38:05,470 --> 00:38:03,020
choice have recognized that it's not

923
00:38:07,329 --> 00:38:05,480
enough just to test products if you find

924
00:38:09,849 --> 00:38:07,339
that products are consistently having

925
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:09,859
problems that's a policy issue and as a

926
00:38:14,740 --> 00:38:12,050
need to have a policy arm and again

927
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:14,750
choice of had its do have policy

928
00:38:18,579 --> 00:38:16,640
officers that can work on the larger

929
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:18,589
issues and choice were one of the first

930
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:20,030
bodies mr. and consumers association

931
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:22,160
they set up consumers international

932
00:38:26,260 --> 00:38:23,930
shimmers international set up Health

933
00:38:29,530 --> 00:38:26,270
Action international which works with

934
00:38:32,290 --> 00:38:29,540
people like me in the region so they've

935
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:32,300
had a significant influence in terms of

936
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:35,599
both medicinal drug policy consumer

937
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:47,810
betterment hey guys this is jay from the

938
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:50,000
skeptics guide to the universe a weld-on

939
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,790
whoa everybody knows I'm the only reason

940
00:38:55,750 --> 00:38:54,560
to listen to the Freak Show right I mean

941
00:38:59,180 --> 00:38:55,760
it was up to me the show would start

942
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:02,730
yeah boy well Rebecca would hate that

943
00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:05,260
probably but I mean I'd rock that listen

944
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:06,700
to our show and you can learn about cool

945
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:08,170
stuff like a technological singularity

946
00:39:11,490 --> 00:39:09,610
which is someday when technology

947
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:11,500
progresses so fast that it would make

948
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:12,850
the Industrial Revolution look like a

949
00:39:41,970 --> 00:39:14,890
kid science project anyway come check us

950
00:39:47,319 --> 00:39:45,609
I'm here in Albury Wodonga which is sort

951
00:39:49,150 --> 00:39:47,329
of between New South Wales and Victoria

952
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:49,160
in fact it's on the border is that we

953
00:39:54,190 --> 00:39:51,650
are doctoral see we'll just exactly on

954
00:39:57,099 --> 00:39:54,200
the border we're about a mile also not a

955
00:39:59,650 --> 00:39:57,109
mile a kilometer a kilometer from the

956
00:40:01,299 --> 00:39:59,660
board it's our roving reporter for the

957
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:01,309
skeptics I'm dr. Chrissy Wilson I've

958
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:04,640
flown down here to help you launch soap

959
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:07,609
what is so so that stands for the

960
00:40:13,359 --> 00:40:11,150
science of animalistic phenomena and for

961
00:40:17,289 --> 00:40:13,369
four years now I have been waiting to

962
00:40:18,910 --> 00:40:17,299
launch soap but here is absolutely the

963
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:18,920
right place to do it this is regional

964
00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:21,440
New South Wales and it's just perfect so

965
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:24,079
so science of animalistic phenomena is a

966
00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:27,609
new research unit where I am going to be

967
00:40:32,019 --> 00:40:30,049
taking on various studies various

968
00:40:34,450 --> 00:40:32,029
research projects getting lots of local

969
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:34,460
people involved so that we can explore

970
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:36,650
and investigate the science of belief

971
00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:38,930
the psychology of belief why people

972
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:40,990
believe in weird and wonderful things

973
00:40:46,539 --> 00:40:44,210
fantastic fantastic and tomorrow night

974
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:46,549
is the big night it isn't a stand up on

975
00:40:53,289 --> 00:40:49,609
your soap box I am I have all my little

976
00:40:55,210 --> 00:40:53,299
soap suds around me which is your

977
00:40:56,799 --> 00:40:55,220
neighbor that way when people subscriber

978
00:40:58,990 --> 00:40:56,809
isn't it they're going to become so yep

979
00:41:01,900 --> 00:40:59,000
if you want to be a friend of soap if

980
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:01,910
you are clean up your act if you want to

981
00:41:08,170 --> 00:41:05,450
clean up your act gloomy a drug user you

982
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:08,180
can become a soap sud yeah Oh Tim

983
00:41:12,910 --> 00:41:10,970
mendham wonderful editor of the skeptic

984
00:41:14,829 --> 00:41:12,920
he emailed me and he said you know you

985
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:14,839
could you have lots of lovely headlines

986
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:17,150
likely watch out psychics Chrissy's

987
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:21,710
coming with the soap so yeah if you want

988
00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:24,410
to be a soap sud then you can join the

989
00:41:27,370 --> 00:41:25,849
mailing list and be a friend of soap

990
00:41:29,650 --> 00:41:27,380
alright what we're going to do now is

991
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:29,660
you are on TV a little bit earlier today

992
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:32,000
on the local news yeah so we're just

993
00:41:37,329 --> 00:41:34,250
going to play the audio of that and then

994
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:37,339
we'll buy the magic of podcasting will

995
00:41:42,549 --> 00:41:40,160
actually be at the launch absolute after

996
00:41:45,250 --> 00:41:42,559
this little clip so here's you now a

997
00:41:46,810 --> 00:41:45,260
little clip from local television we

998
00:41:49,570 --> 00:41:46,820
almost the reason goes

999
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:49,580
aliens and so I cakes but if you ever

1000
00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:51,770
ask yourself if you're a skeptic or a

1001
00:41:56,290 --> 00:41:54,230
believer linear research group will be

1002
00:41:58,300 --> 00:41:56,300
launched to Charles Duke University to

1003
00:42:00,490 --> 00:41:58,310
find out why people believe in the

1004
00:42:11,470 --> 00:42:00,500
paranormal and why some of us are more

1005
00:42:14,290 --> 00:42:11,480
susceptible to malini is the truth

1006
00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:14,300
really out there or is it just our

1007
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:17,270
mind's playing tricks all many believe

1008
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:18,910
in the world of paranormal activity

1009
00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:22,850
others remain firmly unconvinced what

1010
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:24,470
most people don't realize is that I

1011
00:42:29,110 --> 00:42:26,690
cognitive abilities constantly let us

1012
00:42:30,780 --> 00:42:29,120
down so we see things we haven't seen we

1013
00:42:33,490 --> 00:42:30,790
hear things we haven't heard we even

1014
00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:33,500
remember events that didn't even take

1015
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:35,630
place dr. Wilson who was taught

1016
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:38,480
psychology in London and Tasmania is

1017
00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:40,640
setting up a research unit into the

1018
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:42,980
subject she is looking for reasons why

1019
00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:44,450
people believe in the weird and

1020
00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:46,430
wonderful and will be enlisting the help

1021
00:42:51,490 --> 00:42:49,280
of locals to do so but I also want to do

1022
00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:51,500
some experimental stuff I'm since I've

1023
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:53,240
been here I've become aware of the fact

1024
00:42:58,180 --> 00:42:55,040
that there are lots and lots of really

1025
00:43:00,850 --> 00:42:58,190
spooking houses in the area stinking

1026
00:43:02,770 --> 00:43:00,860
buildings dr. Wilson hopes to take our

1027
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:02,780
research to places like the former

1028
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:05,330
Beechworth asylum and Monte Cristo

1029
00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:08,240
homestead at uni the research group will

1030
00:43:12,010 --> 00:43:10,070
be launched tomorrow night with locals

1031
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:12,020
and courage to come along if you

1032
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:15,170
disagree with me if you think I'm on the

1033
00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:16,850
wrong track if you've got some fantastic

1034
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:18,950
stories to tell us then come along

1035
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:21,290
tomorrow night the launch will be at CSU

1036
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:24,170
from 6pm dhoni orbiting prime seven

1037
00:43:31,330 --> 00:43:27,290
years well i'm here at the launch of

1038
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:31,340
soap and stagger me blow me down who's

1039
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:33,170
walked in none other than voiceover men

1040
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:36,050
Jim Wilshire hi Jim hi Richard I'm

1041
00:43:38,430 --> 00:43:38,000
really well really excited to be here

1042
00:43:40,859 --> 00:43:38,440
too

1043
00:43:44,190 --> 00:43:40,869
launch soap I'm really looking forward

1044
00:43:45,660 --> 00:43:44,200
to hearing you are you i'm looking

1045
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:45,670
forward to speaking to people i'm seeing

1046
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:47,290
you but the time you're speaking to me

1047
00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:51,010
it's happening it's anywhere early we

1048
00:43:54,030 --> 00:43:52,630
are a little bit early but the crowds

1049
00:43:55,559 --> 00:43:54,040
moving in which is nice to see the

1050
00:43:58,380 --> 00:43:55,569
auditorium here at the university is

1051
00:44:00,180 --> 00:43:58,390
filling up so and i'm lucky enough after

1052
00:44:01,770 --> 00:44:00,190
this heading up to your property for a

1053
00:44:04,410 --> 00:44:01,780
feud and relaxing days by the murray

1054
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:04,420
river it'll be absolutely wonderful at

1055
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:06,970
you again thank you looking forward to a

1056
00:44:48,430 --> 00:44:09,010
gym oh well let's find our seats and

1057
00:44:58,779 --> 00:44:54,260
animalistic very well welcome to the

1058
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:04,249
so is a brand new research unit that is

1059
00:45:12,980 --> 00:45:08,130
going to be dedicated to investigate

1060
00:45:15,859 --> 00:45:12,990
and all the latest ordinary phenomenal

1061
00:45:17,989 --> 00:45:15,869
okay so my research

1062
00:45:21,049 --> 00:45:17,999
is called formalistic so I packaging

1063
00:45:21,890 --> 00:45:21,059
that's not to be confused with what you

1064
00:45:25,010 --> 00:45:21,900
probably heard

1065
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:25,020
for carousel apology now the image of a

1066
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:27,540
parapsychologist tends to remodel ideas

1067
00:45:32,510 --> 00:45:30,810
with the or more-- title character for

1068
00:45:35,090 --> 00:45:32,520
ghost bus the social kind of wacky

1069
00:45:37,620 --> 00:45:35,100
monster who spends most weekends

1070
00:45:40,510 --> 00:45:37,630
importances

1071
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:40,520
that's not what I do actually I have to

1072
00:45:47,230 --> 00:45:44,690
learn your daughter TV programs with UK

1073
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:47,240
but I was open on the listing

1074
00:45:53,890 --> 00:45:50,330
psychologist so it's very much looking

1075
00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:53,900
at the camera from a psychological in

1076
00:46:03,640 --> 00:45:57,680
some cases physiological or to do my

1077
00:46:06,250 --> 00:46:03,650
next guest needs no introduction you'll

1078
00:46:09,310 --> 00:46:06,260
always be loved st. Anselm's program

1079
00:46:13,180 --> 00:46:09,320
Australia search for it so significant

1080
00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:13,190
psychic for are you suggesting to the

1081
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:15,260
producers of the world what they might

1082
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:17,290
like to call their second series I

1083
00:46:27,980 --> 00:46:20,480
suggest you or strange chris with these

1084
00:46:37,170 --> 00:46:27,990
summer too so

1085
00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:44,780
Thank You demonstrations I am the

1086
00:46:50,819 --> 00:46:47,500
circled skeptical judge 1 i've been

1087
00:46:53,579 --> 00:46:50,829
involved and skepticism down pretty cool

1088
00:47:00,320 --> 00:46:53,589
on for about 13 years on the member of

1089
00:47:06,110 --> 00:47:03,830
also we spend wire

1090
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:06,120
the United States a group set up by

1091
00:47:13,210 --> 00:47:10,560
James ran across a high as one people I

1092
00:47:17,870 --> 00:47:13,220
love traveling the world investigators

1093
00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:17,880
meetings of like-minded people so like

1094
00:47:26,550 --> 00:47:49,120
that's why we told our guys

1095
00:47:49,130 --> 00:47:59,420
these designs

1096
00:47:59,430 --> 00:48:28,839
is it

1097
00:48:28,849 --> 00:48:32,680
ok

1098
00:48:32,690 --> 00:48:52,400
can we design

1099
00:48:56,540 --> 00:48:54,980
this is ben Radford I'm deputy editor of

1100
00:48:58,610 --> 00:48:56,550
skeptical inquirer science magazine

1101
00:49:00,530 --> 00:48:58,620
author of six books including tracking

1102
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:00,540
chupacabra and you can find out more

1103
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:10,980
about me at Benjamin Radford com well

1104
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:13,110
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1105
00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:14,670
zone and thanks for joining us for that

1106
00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:16,620
very exciting little encounter we had

1107
00:49:22,190 --> 00:49:18,990
with the International Space Station a

1108
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:22,200
while ago coming up soon on the skipping

1109
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:23,610
zone lot more interviews I think we've

1110
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:25,200
got a think tank coming up because lots

1111
00:49:28,580 --> 00:49:26,640
of people request that we have a think

1112
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:28,590
tank thank you to all the listeners who

1113
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:29,910
said hello to me while I've been

1114
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:32,610
visiting Aubrey and very nice comments

1115
00:49:37,130 --> 00:49:34,410
saying how much you enjoy listening to

1116
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:37,140
the skeptic zone but for this week this

1117
00:49:40,940 --> 00:49:39,450
is Richard Saunders signing off from the

1118
00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:40,950
beautiful thin the banks of the

1119
00:49:49,010 --> 00:49:42,750
beautiful Murray River southern New

1120
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:49,020
South Wales Australia you've been

1121
00:49:56,810 --> 00:49:52,290
listening to the skeptic zone visit our

1122
00:49:59,300 --> 00:49:56,820
website at www skeptics on TV for